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photo emulsion peeling away in sepia toner

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Post time: 2013-6-5 21:41:41 |Show all posts
hi
I have been trying to burn photo on canvas covered with liquid photo  emulsion and tone it with sepia. the photo go ok through all processing  stages, and bleaching. Unfortunately after thiourea bath when I start  rinsing the emulsion is going away.

I painted the canvas with alkyd primer, I use Fotospeed sepia toner and Fotospeed photo emulsion.

I am desperately looking for a solution to this problem and I hoped I could use your experience guys.

I would really appreciate any ideas and/or suggestions

thank you
            
   

Post time: 2013-6-6 19:23:57 |Show all posts
Ouch. :(
Keep me informed of your progress, one of these days I'll have to get some liquid emulsion and do something similar.

Post time: 2013-6-6 17:46:49 |Show all posts
that is not bad option- I would have to pay ca 350E for ferry to UK and back only if I was going by car and then petrol on top; dont even want to think of it;) I may consider cheap bus from Dublin to London and carry my stuff in back pack but then if customs find its contents I might be in trouble- a lot of suspicious chemicals (probably for constructing some sort of explosives;)

Post time: 2013-6-6 16:37:58 |Show all posts
There may not be anything "wrong" with the Fotospeed one, it's just different and the Rollie one may have a binder to make it stick better.
I live in Canada and have similar problems, hazmat shipping charges, etc.  The only good thing is the US border is only 60 miles and if needed, I can have items shipped to a parcel pickup place in a US town 2 miles from the border crossing

Post time: 2013-6-6 14:52:46 |Show all posts
PS. and thank you very much for the link to APUG forum

Post time: 2013-6-6 13:26:29 |Show all posts
The problem is solved Bob, I am still not sure what exactly caused it but I toned the canvas which I printed yesterday and emulsion adhere after toning no problem:) I have only changed emulsion and used Rollei BM instead Fotospeed (not sure what wrong with the last one), now I have to only eliminate the brush strokes but that seems to be easier than toning problem.
So I reckon that alkyd paint I used is all right providing I wash the film in warm water and the soft sponge, dry it and the emulsion adheres well (I will take care of curing primer coating properly nevertheless as you suggested and probably try another mat finish varnish).
I live in Ireland; beautiful place but probably the worst one (at least in Europe) if you look for photographic (and not only) supplies and most foreign sellers refuse sending raw chemicals abroad (at least from the UK).
Thank you for your time and valuable help Bob.
Cheers

Post time: 2013-6-6 11:26:50 |Show all posts
Here is an old thread here, http://photo.net/black-and-white-photo-film-processing-forum/00Dd9g
Maybe you need a top coat of a clear matt finish varnish.  Not sure where in the world you are, but your local hardware/paint store probably has small cans of oil based varnish in satin or mat finish.  A thin coat should have enough "tooth" for the emulsion to stick to.

Post time: 2013-6-6 09:52:32 |Show all posts
it is so confusing Bob, I am the beginner in liquid emulsion (there are so many factors that can spoil your work) and I admit there is truth in what you say: when I paint the emulsion I can see under a safelight that emulsion does not want to adhere to my film base- it forms droplets on the canvas surface characteristic to hydrofobic liquids but when I smear it longer it eventually adhers and forms seemingly uniform  layer but after exposing I encoutered another problem- brush strokes. I changed the brush for soft Jia ban(?) brush and the cover seems to be much more uniform (no brush strokes).
In the liquid emulsion ''bible'' they advise to use Griffin varnish which is no longer available so instead I used Griffin fast drying oil paint- the only thing similar  available in local art shop- perhaps that was a mistake; I can not say because I am still in the middle of experimenting.
I think I am very close to get brush-stroke-less print and tomorrow I will give it a go with sepia and see what happens.
Yours suggestions are very helpful Bob, thank you again

Post time: 2013-6-6 08:46:51 |Show all posts
That nice shine is probably the problem. :(  Film bases are treated to create a surface the gelatin can stick to, called a subbing layer.
  

Post time: 2013-6-6 06:54:14 |Show all posts
to be fair Bob I used Winsor&Newton Griffin fast drying alkyd oil paint which I considerably thinned with white spirit (so drying times should be shortened) I gave 3coats so the canvases looked really nice and had that leathery surface and shine.
Perhaps I was not patient enough and I should let them to cure for longer period (though I used fan during drying and the temp was around 20oC.)
All the same- thank you for valuable hints as they can eventually help me to tone that canvas.

Post time: 2013-6-6 04:59:36 |Show all posts
Two days is a bit short for an alkyd primer to fully cure.  Cure time is very variable, depends on film thickness, formulation, temperature, humidity, etc. Also the alkyd paint formulations used in different countries vary widely.  I'd think seven days at a temp of 23C or so would be a lot better.
Canvas can soak up a lot of paint if you brushed on a coat, and that "thick layer" it's not even a film anymore, can take a very long time to cure.
  

Post time: 2013-6-6 03:14:29 |Show all posts
it was 2 days for drying the primer (in manual they said 24hours for drying). I will do what you suggest and see what happens.
thank you Bob, I appreciate that

Post time: 2013-6-6 02:02:13 |Show all posts
I meant how long did you let the alkyd paint cure?
Id be tempted to let the print dry after fixing and washing.  Most emulsions will lift off the backing if kept wet long enough.  Let a test print dry for 24 hours before doing the toning and see what happens.

Post time: 2013-6-6 00:47:23 |Show all posts
yes I am using kodak fixer with hardener but no curing time at all... I was toning stright after rinsing

Post time: 2013-6-5 23:07:54 |Show all posts
Are you using a hardening fixer?  How long did you let the paint cure?
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